Anyone else notice the references to Milton's "Paradise Lost"?The allusion that really jumps out at me is the very last stanza:
"At dawn my lover comes to me
And tells me of her dreams
With no attempts to shovel the glimpse
Into the ditch of what each one means"
To me, this is a clear reference to Paradise Lost, specifically Book V. The narrator here is Adam, and his lover is Eve telling him of the dream in which she eats the forbidden fruit and they in turn are cast out of Paradise (Eden). In the poem, Adam tells Eve that there is no reason to think about the dream or what it means, because it is just a dream and it is something that she would never do in real life. What follows in "Gates of Eden" is Adam speaking after the fall, or after being kicked out of Eden:
"At times I think there are no words
But these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden."
If you read Paradise Lost, or the Book of Genesis (though Paradise Lost is much more in depth), you realize that there are major differences between the way that humans think before and after the fall. Before the fall, the world is black and white. Everything is clearly defined- there are "truths" and nontruths and nothing in between. However, once Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit they realize that they now have the ability to reason- in a sense, to make decisions on their own and decide what is "right" and "wrong". Since defining these terms are very subjective, then there reallly "are no truths outside the gates of Eden" Sort of like Pontius Pilate said, "What is truth?" The only truth that really exists to Adam or to all human beings is that there are no "truths" in the world.
Therefore, this song to me is about all of the things that humans do to get to this ideal world of Eden, that frankly does not exist. Some examples:
Verse 3- The complaining soldier, and the deaf shoeless hunter remain because they think they are "heading for Eden". They use war to get to Eden.
Verse 4- Aladdin, the monk, the Golden calf- all of these things use spiritualism or magic to get to Eden. All believe in promises of Paradise, but inside the fantasy world of Eden laughs are heard.
Verse 5- Ownership, conquering, kings and queens think they can get to Eden, but these things dont exist in the fantasy world of Eden.
After all this mumbo jumbo, I really take this song as saying a simple statement- that there are no truths. There are no real solutions or answers to the problems that exists, because everyone views the world differently through their own eyes, and they have since Eve ate the forbidden fruit in Eden. I think Dylan was saying on a personal note, that he did not have the answers and was not the savior because there is no such thing as having the answers.
WOW NO ONE WILL READ THIS BECAUSE ITS EXTREMELY LONG.
Impressive analysis. We all know now that Dylan is incredibly well-read so it would only make sense that he would work from Milton's vision when singing of Eden. This is the best explanation I've seen yet.
Impressive analysis. We all know now that Dylan is incredibly well-read so it would only make sense that he would work from Milton's vision when singing of Eden. This is the best explanation I've seen yet.
I really like this analysis. I first heard the song on the 'Dylan Live 1964' CD, and the booklet to that CD expresses a related idea. It talks about a this concert being a critical show because you can see hints of a transition period. Dylan plays many of the folsky political songs that people came to love him for, like 'The times they are-a-changin' but he also ventures into some new material, (like this song.) More serious/ cryptic, and stranger musically as well.
I really like this analysis. I first heard the song on the 'Dylan Live 1964' CD, and the booklet to that CD expresses a related idea. It talks about a this concert being a critical show because you can see hints of a transition period. Dylan plays many of the folsky political songs that people came to love him for, like 'The times they are-a-changin' but he also ventures into some new material, (like this song.) More serious/ cryptic, and stranger musically as well.
The booklet says Dylan would soon begin to really change his style. Hed start playing electric instruments, and more precise songs, with more personal (rather than political) lyrics, and he lost a lot of fans. People were furious, because they loved the early dylan-- the folsky, political, voice-of-the-generation.
Voice-of-a-generation has a lot of pressure attached to it, and maybe that wasnt a role Dylan wanted to permanently fill. I relate all this to your interpretation, because you're saying the main message hear is 'there are no absolute truths.' Perhaps what he is really saying is "I dont have all the answers." Through these unusually cryptic lyrics and unusual song style, perhaps Dylan was warming his fans that he could not fill the role of 'voice-of-the-gneration' forever.
@billhilf Yes they will read this because there are 60's oldsters like myself who are retired and now have time to reflect on our lives. The meaning of Dylan's songs have shall I say haunted me most of my adult life and I enjoy his 60's stuff much more now. Thank you for your interpretation tho. I really think Dylan created a new art form blending music technology (electricity and trad folk art poetry) and then performing it. Think performance poems...many sources
@billhilf Yes they will read this because there are 60's oldsters like myself who are retired and now have time to reflect on our lives. The meaning of Dylan's songs have shall I say haunted me most of my adult life and I enjoy his 60's stuff much more now. Thank you for your interpretation tho. I really think Dylan created a new art form blending music technology (electricity and trad folk art poetry) and then performing it. Think performance poems...many sources
@billhilf I read it and I think it is brilliant except for one thing. And that one thing is related to another Dylan song. And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain. Or so the Grecian urn said.
In brief, belief and faith are eternal, where all the ideas of reason, from justice to science fail. Newtons laws, but come the electromagnetic theories and Einstein. Etc on down. Is it you or me that’s insane?
@billhilf I read it and I think it is brilliant except for one thing. And that one thing is related to another Dylan song. And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain. Or so the Grecian urn said.
In brief, belief and faith are eternal, where all the ideas of reason, from justice to science fail. Newtons laws, but come the electromagnetic theories and Einstein. Etc on down. Is it you or me that’s insane?
Anyone else notice the references to Milton's "Paradise Lost"?The allusion that really jumps out at me is the very last stanza:
"At dawn my lover comes to me And tells me of her dreams With no attempts to shovel the glimpse Into the ditch of what each one means"
To me, this is a clear reference to Paradise Lost, specifically Book V. The narrator here is Adam, and his lover is Eve telling him of the dream in which she eats the forbidden fruit and they in turn are cast out of Paradise (Eden). In the poem, Adam tells Eve that there is no reason to think about the dream or what it means, because it is just a dream and it is something that she would never do in real life. What follows in "Gates of Eden" is Adam speaking after the fall, or after being kicked out of Eden:
"At times I think there are no words But these to tell what's true And there are no truths outside the Gates of Eden."
If you read Paradise Lost, or the Book of Genesis (though Paradise Lost is much more in depth), you realize that there are major differences between the way that humans think before and after the fall. Before the fall, the world is black and white. Everything is clearly defined- there are "truths" and nontruths and nothing in between. However, once Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit they realize that they now have the ability to reason- in a sense, to make decisions on their own and decide what is "right" and "wrong". Since defining these terms are very subjective, then there reallly "are no truths outside the gates of Eden" Sort of like Pontius Pilate said, "What is truth?" The only truth that really exists to Adam or to all human beings is that there are no "truths" in the world.
Therefore, this song to me is about all of the things that humans do to get to this ideal world of Eden, that frankly does not exist. Some examples:
Verse 3- The complaining soldier, and the deaf shoeless hunter remain because they think they are "heading for Eden". They use war to get to Eden.
Verse 4- Aladdin, the monk, the Golden calf- all of these things use spiritualism or magic to get to Eden. All believe in promises of Paradise, but inside the fantasy world of Eden laughs are heard.
Verse 5- Ownership, conquering, kings and queens think they can get to Eden, but these things dont exist in the fantasy world of Eden.
After all this mumbo jumbo, I really take this song as saying a simple statement- that there are no truths. There are no real solutions or answers to the problems that exists, because everyone views the world differently through their own eyes, and they have since Eve ate the forbidden fruit in Eden. I think Dylan was saying on a personal note, that he did not have the answers and was not the savior because there is no such thing as having the answers.
WOW NO ONE WILL READ THIS BECAUSE ITS EXTREMELY LONG.
Impressive analysis. We all know now that Dylan is incredibly well-read so it would only make sense that he would work from Milton's vision when singing of Eden. This is the best explanation I've seen yet.
Impressive analysis. We all know now that Dylan is incredibly well-read so it would only make sense that he would work from Milton's vision when singing of Eden. This is the best explanation I've seen yet.
Thanks a lot for posting it :)
Thanks a lot for posting it :)
I really like this analysis. I first heard the song on the 'Dylan Live 1964' CD, and the booklet to that CD expresses a related idea. It talks about a this concert being a critical show because you can see hints of a transition period. Dylan plays many of the folsky political songs that people came to love him for, like 'The times they are-a-changin' but he also ventures into some new material, (like this song.) More serious/ cryptic, and stranger musically as well.
I really like this analysis. I first heard the song on the 'Dylan Live 1964' CD, and the booklet to that CD expresses a related idea. It talks about a this concert being a critical show because you can see hints of a transition period. Dylan plays many of the folsky political songs that people came to love him for, like 'The times they are-a-changin' but he also ventures into some new material, (like this song.) More serious/ cryptic, and stranger musically as well.
The booklet says Dylan would soon begin to really change his style. Hed start playing electric instruments, and more precise songs, with more personal (rather than political) lyrics, and he lost a lot of fans. People were furious, because they loved the early dylan-- the folsky, political, voice-of-the-generation.
Voice-of-a-generation has a lot of pressure attached to it, and maybe that wasnt a role Dylan wanted to permanently fill. I relate all this to your interpretation, because you're saying the main message hear is 'there are no absolute truths.' Perhaps what he is really saying is "I dont have all the answers." Through these unusually cryptic lyrics and unusual song style, perhaps Dylan was warming his fans that he could not fill the role of 'voice-of-the-gneration' forever.
@billhilf doesn't the fourth verse directly say 'you will NOT hear a laugh'?
@billhilf doesn't the fourth verse directly say 'you will NOT hear a laugh'?
@billhilf Yes they will read this because there are 60's oldsters like myself who are retired and now have time to reflect on our lives. The meaning of Dylan's songs have shall I say haunted me most of my adult life and I enjoy his 60's stuff much more now. Thank you for your interpretation tho. I really think Dylan created a new art form blending music technology (electricity and trad folk art poetry) and then performing it. Think performance poems...many sources
@billhilf Yes they will read this because there are 60's oldsters like myself who are retired and now have time to reflect on our lives. The meaning of Dylan's songs have shall I say haunted me most of my adult life and I enjoy his 60's stuff much more now. Thank you for your interpretation tho. I really think Dylan created a new art form blending music technology (electricity and trad folk art poetry) and then performing it. Think performance poems...many sources
@billhilf I read it and I think it is brilliant except for one thing. And that one thing is related to another Dylan song. And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain. Or so the Grecian urn said. In brief, belief and faith are eternal, where all the ideas of reason, from justice to science fail. Newtons laws, but come the electromagnetic theories and Einstein. Etc on down. Is it you or me that’s insane?
@billhilf I read it and I think it is brilliant except for one thing. And that one thing is related to another Dylan song. And these visions of Johanna are now all that remain. Or so the Grecian urn said. In brief, belief and faith are eternal, where all the ideas of reason, from justice to science fail. Newtons laws, but come the electromagnetic theories and Einstein. Etc on down. Is it you or me that’s insane?