OK. Let me be the one to put a different spin on things.
I am sure that the video and the lyrics are closely linked in that what we see there is a fallen angel.
'Baptized with a perfect name
The doubting one by heart
Alone without himself'
Which fallen angel was a doubting one by heart? Only one - Lucifer. Despite his perfect name, he was 'alone without himself' - alone from God and without himself in the sense that his fall was against what he ought to have been by nature - so he is against himself.
'War between him and the day
Need someone to blame
In the end, little he can do alone'
The rebellion of Lucifer was a 'war between him and the day'. God needed someone to blame for this rebellion, so cast him out - there was 'little he could do alone' to dethrone God.
'You believe but what you see
You receive but what you give'
Most people just accept the Christian view of things - Lucifer = bad, God = good. You only believe what you see presented as the facts. You only receive what you give - people live within the Christian worldview, and they only get back small returns.
There is a play on the well-known biblical phrase about 'what you give is given to you in return'.
'Caress the one, the Never-Fading
Rain in your heart - the tears of snow-white sorrow
Caress the one, the hiding amaranth
In a land of the daybreak'
Hang on, says Tuomas. What you and I need to do is not reject the Fallen Angel, but caress him. The refrain is an appeal to those who can see beyond the Judeo-Christian way of things so that they will 'caress the never-fading hiding amaranth in the land of the daybreak'.
Finland is one of the Scandinavian countries who are traditionally the land of the daybreak and who harbour the roots of paganism and the Old Religions. An amaranth is a flower seen in mythology as symbolising eternity. So, what you have is Lucifer, the never fading one who hides in the land of the daybreak despite the surrounding Christianity. What are we to do? Caress him not reject him.
Ought we to hear 'Rain in your heart' or 'Reign in your heart'? I wonder whether the tears of snow-white sorrow refer to Lucifer who 'innocently' has been cast down for nothing more than exercising his free will, or whether this line is just padding to give credence to the double-entendre of reign/rain? Perhaps.
'Apart from the wandering pack
In this brief flight of time we reach
For the ones, who ever dare'
Who are the wandering pack? Everyone who lives thoughtlessly in Christian ignorance. Who are the ones who ever dare? Those who follow an Older path and who in their brief flight of time dare to believe something different.
'Reaching, searching for something untouched
Hearing voices of the Never-Fading calling'
Untouched because so few dare to do so. Nevertheless, the Never Fading One calls to us if we will hear him. Not God, of course, but Lucifer.
It's not a fallen angel, thanks to God. It can't be devil you fool, cause it's girl. Have you saw the end of the video. The Angel rise up in the sky, returning to God. GOD IS REAL AND I LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not a fallen angel, thanks to God. It can't be devil you fool, cause it's girl. Have you saw the end of the video. The Angel rise up in the sky, returning to God. GOD IS REAL AND I LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I certainly hope you don't live by the policy you seem to express in writing. Lucifer fell because it's impossible to dethrone God. Since all reality falls from God, then it's folly to believe that anything can be more powerful than Him. Everyone who caresses the Devil falls into oblivion, look what corrupt leaders do to the world. Also, I'm a little unclear on how you get the idea that everyone just accepts the Christian worldview; Satan is the one we see everyday, it's God that is unseen until one allows themselves to see and listen. ...
I certainly hope you don't live by the policy you seem to express in writing. Lucifer fell because it's impossible to dethrone God. Since all reality falls from God, then it's folly to believe that anything can be more powerful than Him. Everyone who caresses the Devil falls into oblivion, look what corrupt leaders do to the world. Also, I'm a little unclear on how you get the idea that everyone just accepts the Christian worldview; Satan is the one we see everyday, it's God that is unseen until one allows themselves to see and listen. Only by living the way God meant us too can we find true peace and happiness.
Man you guys are so closed-minded... pencils never said "i am a satanist" but you treat him as if he did. These are not his lyrics, he's just interpreting them, and giving much-needed background as to the symbolism in the song.
Man you guys are so closed-minded... pencils never said "i am a satanist" but you treat him as if he did. These are not his lyrics, he's just interpreting them, and giving much-needed background as to the symbolism in the song.
simply because the song can be interpreted as talking about caressing Lucifer rather than condemning him does not make it an attack on Christianity. nowhere in pencils interpretation did he say that we should worship Lucifer, or that god is wrong; he simply seems to be conveying actually a very Christian message, which is to love All people indiscriminatingly, and not to judge them for what they believe, or the mistakes they have made.
simply because the song can be interpreted as talking about caressing Lucifer rather than condemning him does not make it an attack on Christianity. nowhere in pencils interpretation did he say that we should worship Lucifer, or that god is wrong; he simply seems to be conveying actually a very Christian message, which is to love All people indiscriminatingly, and not to judge them for what they believe, or the mistakes they have made.
it seems to me that the song is talking about how Lucifer made a mistake, and is now suffering for it because now the whole world is living in hatred of him, because we 'need someone to blame' for the suffering that <i>we</i> face. we are all then taught to hate him, because that is how it has always been, and that is how we are taught.
"you believe, but what you see"
i believe the song is describing how it is this hatred that has caused a self fulfilling prophecy, and that as he has only known hate, that is all he can reciprocate towards us. and so we fall into the "never ending rain" in our hearts, the never ceasing cycle of hatred.
"you receive, but what you give"
he then has to try and find those who are not taught to hate him, NOT to corrupt them against god, but just to love him as well, and to show them that he isn't just some evil beast bent on the destruction of heaven.
"reaching, searching for something untouched"
but as those who are taught to hate him hear of his efforts, their prejudice blinds them to his real motives. they only see what they have been taught to see, him trying to corrupt people against god, and so their hatred it fuelled even more.
"hearing voices of the never fading calling"
did Jesus not teach us to 'love thy enemy'? that is the message of this song, that we should not simply accept and "believe but what we see" all around us, but to question whether the prejudices we hold are justified, and that a little more understanding can go a long way. (great example of this above, where people simply assumed that pencils talking about loving Lucifer meant he was a Satanist, and the aggression then showed started an argument, whereas if everyone involved had been a bit more cautious i their accusations it need never have happened.)
i'd just like to thank pencils for his inspired interpretation of what is undoubtedly an amazing song :D
btw i'm sorry for my automatic use of 'he', 'his', and 'him', but i cant be bothered to go back and change them.
This is quite an interesting interpretation. Wasn't Lucifer cast down to earth because he just wanted to surpass God ? Is this a sin - try to go past all limits, and to give the best of yourself ? Freedom, hope, dreams... is this a sin to God ? God is supposed to act like a father to His angels and men. Why would He want to prevent people from aiming higher ? This, in my opinion, is the meaning of pride. What Lucifer did... was just another way to free himself from fate, to reach freedom at last.
This is quite an interesting interpretation. Wasn't Lucifer cast down to earth because he just wanted to surpass God ? Is this a sin - try to go past all limits, and to give the best of yourself ? Freedom, hope, dreams... is this a sin to God ? God is supposed to act like a father to His angels and men. Why would He want to prevent people from aiming higher ? This, in my opinion, is the meaning of pride. What Lucifer did... was just another way to free himself from fate, to reach freedom at last.
Interesting... I've always felt Lucifer's and God's roles where reversed in the bible. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that walks upon it. He created the Angels, to uphold order and peace in the cosmos. Then he goes and creates mankind, and virtually says 'Serve unto them as you would serve unto me.' Basically saying 'worship them and not me.' And set them in the Garden. Lucifer in all his glory thought God has made a grave a error. So naturally he set out to show God how inferior man was, by tempting them. And thus God...
Interesting... I've always felt Lucifer's and God's roles where reversed in the bible. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that walks upon it. He created the Angels, to uphold order and peace in the cosmos. Then he goes and creates mankind, and virtually says 'Serve unto them as you would serve unto me.' Basically saying 'worship them and not me.' And set them in the Garden. Lucifer in all his glory thought God has made a grave a error. So naturally he set out to show God how inferior man was, by tempting them. And thus God cast out Lucifer. For what? Showing the Almighty he made an error? Is this a fatal sin? Lucifer loved God so much he was willing to speak up to him and show him the error of his way. How did God thank him? He cast him out. Who's the real devil and who's the real just one?
PS I am a Norse Pagan. I dont believe Ragnarök has come yet.
@pencils3 I love this interpretation--although I would offer an inversion of what it's about. The story of Lucifer (at least, the usual version) is a very human one, of self-destructive pride and the petulant anger that masks regret. I'm with you 100% on the first stanza, but I suggest that rather than God needing someone to blame for the rebellion, that Lucifer "[needed] someone to blame" for his sense of being denied what he deserved. To the narcissist, any failure must be someone else's fault. Depending on the version, Lucifer's narcissistic rage either turns on God...
@pencils3 I love this interpretation--although I would offer an inversion of what it's about. The story of Lucifer (at least, the usual version) is a very human one, of self-destructive pride and the petulant anger that masks regret. I'm with you 100% on the first stanza, but I suggest that rather than God needing someone to blame for the rebellion, that Lucifer "[needed] someone to blame" for his sense of being denied what he deserved. To the narcissist, any failure must be someone else's fault. Depending on the version, Lucifer's narcissistic rage either turns on God at once, or turns on humanity first (see Dogma) and then shifts to Heaven when he's told to cut it out.
To clarify my point, a brief digression: if you posit a generally good God (without which, let's be honest, the Universe is a pretty terrifying place), then the Christian notion of Hell makes no sense--unless it's a mechanical consequence of how the Universe is built. That is to say, if the natural consequence of Lucifer's fall is the creation of something deliberately antithetical to Heaven. If you've ever met a narcissist, you know it doesn't take any actual hostility on Heaven's part; one party's wounded pride is all it takes to start a "war between him and the day." As you pointed out, though, it's not a war he can actually win, himself.
It's not clear whether "you believe but what you see" and "you receive but what you give" are supposed to have an implied negative (e.g. "you believe/receive [only] what you see/give"), or not (e.g. "you believe/receive [all except] what you see/give"). The first kind of makes more sense intuitively, but it's grammatically kind of a stretch.
Either way, my intuition is that the bulk of the song is addressing Lucifer, urging him to let go of his petty dispute, and embrace God. After all, if you start from assuming a Creator Being that transcends the very notions of time and space (which, in Torah, introduces itself essentially as The Thing That Is), what could be more eternal, Never-Fading? Narcissism is ultimately a coping mechanism for self-loathing, and rejection from the divine is plenty of cause for "rain in [one's] heart," which in the case of someone coldly refusing to acknowledge them, could be called "tears of snow-white sorrow." Conversely, recall where Lucifer lives according to Dante.
I'm not sure what I'd do with the "wandering pack," although it's worth noting that in the usual versions, most of the angels who fell did so for pretty stupid reasons, like experimenting with avarice and lust. Lucifer's rebellion was much more personal, and in some accounts, even philosophical, which certainly sets him apart. The rest of the stanza could be another injunction to end the conflict on the grounds that "the ones, whoever dare" (to set aside anger and defensiveness) are to be admired.
In Tolkien's Middle Earth mythology, obviously based strongly on Lucifer's Fall, his Lucifer-analogue begins a discordant song because he wants spitefully to sing something different, something original, "something untouched" by the God-analogue's creative influence. I wonder if that might not be the point in the bridge--and, of course, as an angel, a divine being, Lucifer must always know that "the never fading" and the rest of the Host calls to him, always, even if he's forever too angry and too despairing to listen.
PS: Regarding "in the land of daybreak," I'm less inclined to read it as referring to actual geography. It's worth remembering that Lucifer is the Morning Star (Venus, to the Romans). There's one biblical passage that refers to Lucifer as Son of the Dawn, as well.
OK. Let me be the one to put a different spin on things.
I am sure that the video and the lyrics are closely linked in that what we see there is a fallen angel.
'Baptized with a perfect name The doubting one by heart Alone without himself'
Which fallen angel was a doubting one by heart? Only one - Lucifer. Despite his perfect name, he was 'alone without himself' - alone from God and without himself in the sense that his fall was against what he ought to have been by nature - so he is against himself.
'War between him and the day Need someone to blame In the end, little he can do alone'
The rebellion of Lucifer was a 'war between him and the day'. God needed someone to blame for this rebellion, so cast him out - there was 'little he could do alone' to dethrone God.
'You believe but what you see You receive but what you give'
Most people just accept the Christian view of things - Lucifer = bad, God = good. You only believe what you see presented as the facts. You only receive what you give - people live within the Christian worldview, and they only get back small returns.
There is a play on the well-known biblical phrase about 'what you give is given to you in return'.
'Caress the one, the Never-Fading Rain in your heart - the tears of snow-white sorrow Caress the one, the hiding amaranth In a land of the daybreak'
Hang on, says Tuomas. What you and I need to do is not reject the Fallen Angel, but caress him. The refrain is an appeal to those who can see beyond the Judeo-Christian way of things so that they will 'caress the never-fading hiding amaranth in the land of the daybreak'.
Finland is one of the Scandinavian countries who are traditionally the land of the daybreak and who harbour the roots of paganism and the Old Religions. An amaranth is a flower seen in mythology as symbolising eternity. So, what you have is Lucifer, the never fading one who hides in the land of the daybreak despite the surrounding Christianity. What are we to do? Caress him not reject him.
Ought we to hear 'Rain in your heart' or 'Reign in your heart'? I wonder whether the tears of snow-white sorrow refer to Lucifer who 'innocently' has been cast down for nothing more than exercising his free will, or whether this line is just padding to give credence to the double-entendre of reign/rain? Perhaps.
'Apart from the wandering pack In this brief flight of time we reach For the ones, who ever dare'
Who are the wandering pack? Everyone who lives thoughtlessly in Christian ignorance. Who are the ones who ever dare? Those who follow an Older path and who in their brief flight of time dare to believe something different.
'Reaching, searching for something untouched Hearing voices of the Never-Fading calling'
Untouched because so few dare to do so. Nevertheless, the Never Fading One calls to us if we will hear him. Not God, of course, but Lucifer.
This song is veiled but decipherable.
OK. 'Nuff said.
It's not a fallen angel, thanks to God. It can't be devil you fool, cause it's girl. Have you saw the end of the video. The Angel rise up in the sky, returning to God. GOD IS REAL AND I LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not a fallen angel, thanks to God. It can't be devil you fool, cause it's girl. Have you saw the end of the video. The Angel rise up in the sky, returning to God. GOD IS REAL AND I LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I certainly hope you don't live by the policy you seem to express in writing. Lucifer fell because it's impossible to dethrone God. Since all reality falls from God, then it's folly to believe that anything can be more powerful than Him. Everyone who caresses the Devil falls into oblivion, look what corrupt leaders do to the world. Also, I'm a little unclear on how you get the idea that everyone just accepts the Christian worldview; Satan is the one we see everyday, it's God that is unseen until one allows themselves to see and listen. ...
I certainly hope you don't live by the policy you seem to express in writing. Lucifer fell because it's impossible to dethrone God. Since all reality falls from God, then it's folly to believe that anything can be more powerful than Him. Everyone who caresses the Devil falls into oblivion, look what corrupt leaders do to the world. Also, I'm a little unclear on how you get the idea that everyone just accepts the Christian worldview; Satan is the one we see everyday, it's God that is unseen until one allows themselves to see and listen. Only by living the way God meant us too can we find true peace and happiness.
Man you guys are so closed-minded... pencils never said "i am a satanist" but you treat him as if he did. These are not his lyrics, he's just interpreting them, and giving much-needed background as to the symbolism in the song.
Man you guys are so closed-minded... pencils never said "i am a satanist" but you treat him as if he did. These are not his lyrics, he's just interpreting them, and giving much-needed background as to the symbolism in the song.
BTW! Who ever said satan is automatically a man?!
BTW! Who ever said satan is automatically a man?!
SHUT! UP!
SHUT! UP!
simply because the song can be interpreted as talking about caressing Lucifer rather than condemning him does not make it an attack on Christianity. nowhere in pencils interpretation did he say that we should worship Lucifer, or that god is wrong; he simply seems to be conveying actually a very Christian message, which is to love All people indiscriminatingly, and not to judge them for what they believe, or the mistakes they have made.
simply because the song can be interpreted as talking about caressing Lucifer rather than condemning him does not make it an attack on Christianity. nowhere in pencils interpretation did he say that we should worship Lucifer, or that god is wrong; he simply seems to be conveying actually a very Christian message, which is to love All people indiscriminatingly, and not to judge them for what they believe, or the mistakes they have made.
it seems to me that the song is talking about how Lucifer made a mistake, and is now suffering for it because now the whole world is living in hatred of him, because we 'need someone to blame' for the suffering that <i>we</i> face. we are all then taught to hate him, because that is how it has always been, and that is how we are taught.
"you believe, but what you see"
i believe the song is describing how it is this hatred that has caused a self fulfilling prophecy, and that as he has only known hate, that is all he can reciprocate towards us. and so we fall into the "never ending rain" in our hearts, the never ceasing cycle of hatred.
"you receive, but what you give"
he then has to try and find those who are not taught to hate him, NOT to corrupt them against god, but just to love him as well, and to show them that he isn't just some evil beast bent on the destruction of heaven.
"reaching, searching for something untouched"
but as those who are taught to hate him hear of his efforts, their prejudice blinds them to his real motives. they only see what they have been taught to see, him trying to corrupt people against god, and so their hatred it fuelled even more.
"hearing voices of the never fading calling"
did Jesus not teach us to 'love thy enemy'? that is the message of this song, that we should not simply accept and "believe but what we see" all around us, but to question whether the prejudices we hold are justified, and that a little more understanding can go a long way. (great example of this above, where people simply assumed that pencils talking about loving Lucifer meant he was a Satanist, and the aggression then showed started an argument, whereas if everyone involved had been a bit more cautious i their accusations it need never have happened.)
i'd just like to thank pencils for his inspired interpretation of what is undoubtedly an amazing song :D
btw i'm sorry for my automatic use of 'he', 'his', and 'him', but i cant be bothered to go back and change them.
This is quite an interesting interpretation. Wasn't Lucifer cast down to earth because he just wanted to surpass God ? Is this a sin - try to go past all limits, and to give the best of yourself ? Freedom, hope, dreams... is this a sin to God ? God is supposed to act like a father to His angels and men. Why would He want to prevent people from aiming higher ? This, in my opinion, is the meaning of pride. What Lucifer did... was just another way to free himself from fate, to reach freedom at last.
This is quite an interesting interpretation. Wasn't Lucifer cast down to earth because he just wanted to surpass God ? Is this a sin - try to go past all limits, and to give the best of yourself ? Freedom, hope, dreams... is this a sin to God ? God is supposed to act like a father to His angels and men. Why would He want to prevent people from aiming higher ? This, in my opinion, is the meaning of pride. What Lucifer did... was just another way to free himself from fate, to reach freedom at last.
I think your interpretation of the lyrics is very interesting. I never looked at it this way.
I think your interpretation of the lyrics is very interesting. I never looked at it this way.
Interesting... I've always felt Lucifer's and God's roles where reversed in the bible. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that walks upon it. He created the Angels, to uphold order and peace in the cosmos. Then he goes and creates mankind, and virtually says 'Serve unto them as you would serve unto me.' Basically saying 'worship them and not me.' And set them in the Garden. Lucifer in all his glory thought God has made a grave a error. So naturally he set out to show God how inferior man was, by tempting them. And thus God...
Interesting... I've always felt Lucifer's and God's roles where reversed in the bible. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that walks upon it. He created the Angels, to uphold order and peace in the cosmos. Then he goes and creates mankind, and virtually says 'Serve unto them as you would serve unto me.' Basically saying 'worship them and not me.' And set them in the Garden. Lucifer in all his glory thought God has made a grave a error. So naturally he set out to show God how inferior man was, by tempting them. And thus God cast out Lucifer. For what? Showing the Almighty he made an error? Is this a fatal sin? Lucifer loved God so much he was willing to speak up to him and show him the error of his way. How did God thank him? He cast him out. Who's the real devil and who's the real just one?
PS I am a Norse Pagan. I dont believe Ragnarök has come yet.
@pencils3 I love this interpretation--although I would offer an inversion of what it's about. The story of Lucifer (at least, the usual version) is a very human one, of self-destructive pride and the petulant anger that masks regret. I'm with you 100% on the first stanza, but I suggest that rather than God needing someone to blame for the rebellion, that Lucifer "[needed] someone to blame" for his sense of being denied what he deserved. To the narcissist, any failure must be someone else's fault. Depending on the version, Lucifer's narcissistic rage either turns on God...
@pencils3 I love this interpretation--although I would offer an inversion of what it's about. The story of Lucifer (at least, the usual version) is a very human one, of self-destructive pride and the petulant anger that masks regret. I'm with you 100% on the first stanza, but I suggest that rather than God needing someone to blame for the rebellion, that Lucifer "[needed] someone to blame" for his sense of being denied what he deserved. To the narcissist, any failure must be someone else's fault. Depending on the version, Lucifer's narcissistic rage either turns on God at once, or turns on humanity first (see Dogma) and then shifts to Heaven when he's told to cut it out.
To clarify my point, a brief digression: if you posit a generally good God (without which, let's be honest, the Universe is a pretty terrifying place), then the Christian notion of Hell makes no sense--unless it's a mechanical consequence of how the Universe is built. That is to say, if the natural consequence of Lucifer's fall is the creation of something deliberately antithetical to Heaven. If you've ever met a narcissist, you know it doesn't take any actual hostility on Heaven's part; one party's wounded pride is all it takes to start a "war between him and the day." As you pointed out, though, it's not a war he can actually win, himself.
It's not clear whether "you believe but what you see" and "you receive but what you give" are supposed to have an implied negative (e.g. "you believe/receive [only] what you see/give"), or not (e.g. "you believe/receive [all except] what you see/give"). The first kind of makes more sense intuitively, but it's grammatically kind of a stretch.
Either way, my intuition is that the bulk of the song is addressing Lucifer, urging him to let go of his petty dispute, and embrace God. After all, if you start from assuming a Creator Being that transcends the very notions of time and space (which, in Torah, introduces itself essentially as The Thing That Is), what could be more eternal, Never-Fading? Narcissism is ultimately a coping mechanism for self-loathing, and rejection from the divine is plenty of cause for "rain in [one's] heart," which in the case of someone coldly refusing to acknowledge them, could be called "tears of snow-white sorrow." Conversely, recall where Lucifer lives according to Dante.
I'm not sure what I'd do with the "wandering pack," although it's worth noting that in the usual versions, most of the angels who fell did so for pretty stupid reasons, like experimenting with avarice and lust. Lucifer's rebellion was much more personal, and in some accounts, even philosophical, which certainly sets him apart. The rest of the stanza could be another injunction to end the conflict on the grounds that "the ones, whoever dare" (to set aside anger and defensiveness) are to be admired.
In Tolkien's Middle Earth mythology, obviously based strongly on Lucifer's Fall, his Lucifer-analogue begins a discordant song because he wants spitefully to sing something different, something original, "something untouched" by the God-analogue's creative influence. I wonder if that might not be the point in the bridge--and, of course, as an angel, a divine being, Lucifer must always know that "the never fading" and the rest of the Host calls to him, always, even if he's forever too angry and too despairing to listen.
PS: Regarding "in the land of daybreak," I'm less inclined to read it as referring to actual geography. It's worth remembering that Lucifer is the Morning Star (Venus, to the Romans). There's one biblical passage that refers to Lucifer as Son of the Dawn, as well.
@pencils3 It's not about Lucifer because in the final of video clip he rises to heaven
@pencils3 It's not about Lucifer because in the final of video clip he rises to heaven
END.
END.