First off, allow to say to those of you not used to my posts, this is gonna be very long, just a heads up.
This song says what it says in very round about ways.
Allow me to analyze each line for the allusions and inferences they make before attempting to understand what the entire line is saying.
Conquest to the lover,
And your love to the fire,
Permanence unfolding in the absolute.
Conquest (victory over another) [goes] to the lover (of conquest? Of victory?)
And your love [of the] fire (destruction)
Permanence (of events) unfolding in the absolute(ness of reality).
Paraphrased:
Victory will go to those who wish to take it – those who wish dominance, and the permanence of their actions is absolute (we cannot rewrite history).
What I believe he is saying is that people can conquer others if they so desire such dominance, and that conquest of other people (once it has happened) is permanent not in that the people will always be conquered, but they always will have been conquered. The point of saying that people will conquer others is that he says these people still make a choice to conquer others, regardless if they say it is a means to an end, or the ends, the physical reality of someone conquering and someone being conquered still exists.
Forgiveness is
The ultimate sacrifice.
The previous three lines were much vaguer. This line says exactly what it means. To forgive is a sacrifice you make. This seems slightly out of place in the rest of the song, so allow me to return later as more of the purpose of the song is unfolded.
Eloquence belongs,
To the conqueror.
This seems very much like the saying “to the victor goes the history.” Remember the War between the US and Mexico? The US conquered Texas, New Mexico, and California, and took them from Mexico. Yet, it is very rarely mentioned anywhere but an in-depth US history class (here in the US anyway). In fact, when it is mentioned, mostly it is told as a story of the citizens of Texas (and California and New Mex. Etc) wanting horribly to be freed from Mexico. The fact of the matter is that the only residents of Texas who wanted to join the US were US citizens who had migrated to Texas (some with the sole purpose of establishing a population in Texas which wanted to join the US). Yet, we won the war, and we write the text books. There are many, many examples from history where a war is remembered not as it happened, but as the victors of the war told the story (see WWI). Also, imagine the text books the Nazis would have written about the holocaust if they had won the war.
The pictures of time and space are rearranged,
In this little piece of typical tragedy.
The [picture] of “time and space” (history) are (is) rearranged,
In this little piece of typical tragedy.
This seems to further this point. “the picture of time and space are rearranged. Not that anything between time and space is intermixed, but history and the events therein are “rearranged.” This little piece of typical tragedy – humans have suffered throughout history, thus the word “typical” seems to fit well after the word tragedy. He still seems to be referring to any war (any typical tragedy) or any conflict amongst humans. It doesn’t seem to refer to any particular war or conflict, but the statement seems to attempt to more generally describe any conflict or war (any typical tragedy).
To summarize: History is rewritten in any typical event of human suffering, due namely to the fact that the victors of such a suffering rewrite the history of it.
Justified Candy!
Brandy for the nerves,
Justified [things which bring me happiness]!
Brandy [to numb] the nerves (the mind).
Realigned:
Justified:
Candy
Brandy for the nerves
These two lines say pretty much the same thing. We justify things that make us happy or numb our minds. Which is interesting, because it could be argued that things that make us happy do just that – numb our minds. When we are blissful, we are ignorant of our current reality (hence the phrase, “ignorant bliss” – notably NOT worded “blissfully ignorant”). It would be safe to say the two are added just for emphasis, and say pretty much the same thing.
However, what does this have to do with the rest of the song? Lets reconsider now what all has been said. The actions of people who conquer others remain permanent through history; to forgive is the ultimate sacrifice; history is rewritten favorably to by the conquerors; and we justify that which numbs our mind. Ah ha! It would be fair to say that from the perspective of the conquerors, remembering history differently (where you were the nice guy, not that bad guy) helps to deal with any guilt of the actions of conquering someone. However, it also may be fair to say that if you watched someone be conquered and did nothing, it may help absolve you of any guilt as well to remember the events of history as the conquers being somehow “justified” in their actions of conquest.
Eloquence belongs,
To the conqueror.
Well shit, this line has a ton to do with the previous one, it makes very much sense now right next to the one before it.
Now we delve further down the rabbit hole:
You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.
The generation that didn’t agree means more than just one thing. It seems to refer to the almost schizophrenic character of the American public at the moment (two minds – one body), but also the larger fissure between humanity – at this moment of the greatest contact between humans ever, it is also the moment where our differences are in our faces the most. Its one thing for someone to worship a different god when the are a 2 months boat ride away from me, but it is an entirely different thing when they are two clicks of a mouse away.
To the entire stanza now:
The first time I listened to this, it sounded like most other interpretations have claimed. We will go down in the text books with the statue of liberty frowning upon us due to the differences of our generation.
As a started to listen to this song more and more however, a new meaning that fit much better with the rest of the meaning began to materialize.
Two separate, but meaningful interpretations arise:
1)
Let us remove from our minds the meaning of go down in history for a moment.
What if this served more as a warning – we will go down. Due to our sad statue of liberty and the disagreement of our generation. (History serves more as a poetic tool to rhyme with agree).
2)
I like this meaning better, as it seems to make more sense with the words SOAD has given us to make sense of.
The meaning of the first line remains constant with what the common conception is – that we will go down in the history books. The sad statue of liberty (the title line of this song) might have a much more profound meaning. In this line, I believe, the rational and reasoning for the rest of the song lies.
First lets consider the statue of liberty. What is it? What is it supposed to be? It is THE symbol of American freedom. Liberty (which means freedom) has been the corner stone of America (I have not experienced this for myself, but at least in the words of my predecessors) for the past 200 years. Now, however, we are losing those liberties. The government is the strongest in comparison with its subjects than it arguably ever has been. Many Americans are complaining that the government has taken away more and more rights of American citizens and some feel it may be nearing a critical point – a point where once certain rights are removed, the government would retain freewill, to do and say as they please in regards to its citizens, and not be fearful of any legal repercussions (this is what most proponents of democracy say is the problem with dictatorships). (If you would like to read more about this, I have an essay on the web about this. Please check it out at without-sight.pixelfaction.com/MCA/. If you disagree with this point, please at least read that essay before commenting on this point.)
This is why the statue of liberty is sad.
This is BECAUSE our generation cannot agree. We spend all our time arguing with each other, and have mostly ignored the fact that our government is doing this. The other point is that we have justified this governmental removal of citizens’ rights because we need to protect ourselves from foreign threats (another disagreement of our generation).
So we repeat the song again
You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.
I forgot to
I forgot to let you know that...
Justified Candy!
Brandy for the nerves,
Eloquence belongs,
To the conqueror.
Conquest to the lover,
And your love to the fire,
Permanence unfolding in the absolute.
Forgivness is
The ultimate sacrifice.
Eloquence belongs,
To the conqueror.
You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.
You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.
Generation..............
Finally a new lyric:
What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!!
This doesn’t need analyzied. It needs said again, and again, and again, until someone can answer this with a valid reason.
To analyize this in context of the song though, The actions of people who conquer others remain permanent through history; to forgive is the ultimate sacrifice; history is rewritten favorably to by the conquerors; and we justify that which numbs our mind to these travesties; we as humans are sinking fast due to the removal of human rights; and now why do we ignore the suffering of humans? That seems to paint an adequate picture of what SOAD seems to be trying to say. The context of human suffering does not need to be the people of Darfur or the bystanders in Iraq, but HUMAN suffering – all of us are suffering (obviously some much more than others).
Allow me to allow someone more eloquent than me to explain what I mean by this:
“No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.
-- John Donne”
WOAH!!!!!!!
Suffering, suffering now!
You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.
You and me will all go down in history,
With a sad Statue of Liberty,
And a Generation that didn't agree.
Generation..........
Like I was saying a few lines above:
What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!!
What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!!
@durwin You were on a good track but got blinded by brandy for the nerves :)
@durwin You were on a good track but got blinded by brandy for the nerves :)
e>Song is about the victors rewriting history and conquest ( which America is doing since beggining ) and all of that what You mentioned.
Place where our views differ is that actually this song is not watching on lost rights of Americans that much, but how American millitary industrial complex has been destroying country after country all around the globe, and American people are just giving a blind eye to what THEY are doing instead of massive protests and are just pretending to be about freedom and democracy and that is making statue of Liberty sad cause the people decided they dont care about real freedom it is easier to go to McDonalds or get drunk and just ignore Your responsibility in millions of civilians getting killed in "Your name". And it doesnt matter to You anyway cause You will rewrite the history book time and time again and make it allright.... and all about patriotism and what not.... and one day long after all these wars played out You will go down in History and be remembered as a generation that was staying quite about atrociti as bad as ww2 ones, while still saying : America fuck Yeah with obese and dumbed down children that are brainwashed. ( this is not personal to You just American people as general that are not protesting this enough while constantly inventing new enemies to destroy. )
First off, allow to say to those of you not used to my posts, this is gonna be very long, just a heads up.
This song says what it says in very round about ways.
Allow me to analyze each line for the allusions and inferences they make before attempting to understand what the entire line is saying.
Conquest to the lover, And your love to the fire, Permanence unfolding in the absolute.
Conquest (victory over another) [goes] to the lover (of conquest? Of victory?) And your love [of the] fire (destruction) Permanence (of events) unfolding in the absolute(ness of reality).
Paraphrased: Victory will go to those who wish to take it – those who wish dominance, and the permanence of their actions is absolute (we cannot rewrite history).
What I believe he is saying is that people can conquer others if they so desire such dominance, and that conquest of other people (once it has happened) is permanent not in that the people will always be conquered, but they always will have been conquered. The point of saying that people will conquer others is that he says these people still make a choice to conquer others, regardless if they say it is a means to an end, or the ends, the physical reality of someone conquering and someone being conquered still exists.
Forgiveness is The ultimate sacrifice.
The previous three lines were much vaguer. This line says exactly what it means. To forgive is a sacrifice you make. This seems slightly out of place in the rest of the song, so allow me to return later as more of the purpose of the song is unfolded.
Eloquence belongs, To the conqueror.
This seems very much like the saying “to the victor goes the history.” Remember the War between the US and Mexico? The US conquered Texas, New Mexico, and California, and took them from Mexico. Yet, it is very rarely mentioned anywhere but an in-depth US history class (here in the US anyway). In fact, when it is mentioned, mostly it is told as a story of the citizens of Texas (and California and New Mex. Etc) wanting horribly to be freed from Mexico. The fact of the matter is that the only residents of Texas who wanted to join the US were US citizens who had migrated to Texas (some with the sole purpose of establishing a population in Texas which wanted to join the US). Yet, we won the war, and we write the text books. There are many, many examples from history where a war is remembered not as it happened, but as the victors of the war told the story (see WWI). Also, imagine the text books the Nazis would have written about the holocaust if they had won the war.
The pictures of time and space are rearranged, In this little piece of typical tragedy.
The [picture] of “time and space” (history) are (is) rearranged, In this little piece of typical tragedy.
This seems to further this point. “the picture of time and space are rearranged. Not that anything between time and space is intermixed, but history and the events therein are “rearranged.” This little piece of typical tragedy – humans have suffered throughout history, thus the word “typical” seems to fit well after the word tragedy. He still seems to be referring to any war (any typical tragedy) or any conflict amongst humans. It doesn’t seem to refer to any particular war or conflict, but the statement seems to attempt to more generally describe any conflict or war (any typical tragedy). To summarize: History is rewritten in any typical event of human suffering, due namely to the fact that the victors of such a suffering rewrite the history of it.
Justified Candy! Brandy for the nerves,
Justified [things which bring me happiness]! Brandy [to numb] the nerves (the mind).
Realigned: Justified: Candy Brandy for the nerves
These two lines say pretty much the same thing. We justify things that make us happy or numb our minds. Which is interesting, because it could be argued that things that make us happy do just that – numb our minds. When we are blissful, we are ignorant of our current reality (hence the phrase, “ignorant bliss” – notably NOT worded “blissfully ignorant”). It would be safe to say the two are added just for emphasis, and say pretty much the same thing.
However, what does this have to do with the rest of the song? Lets reconsider now what all has been said. The actions of people who conquer others remain permanent through history; to forgive is the ultimate sacrifice; history is rewritten favorably to by the conquerors; and we justify that which numbs our mind. Ah ha! It would be fair to say that from the perspective of the conquerors, remembering history differently (where you were the nice guy, not that bad guy) helps to deal with any guilt of the actions of conquering someone. However, it also may be fair to say that if you watched someone be conquered and did nothing, it may help absolve you of any guilt as well to remember the events of history as the conquers being somehow “justified” in their actions of conquest.
Eloquence belongs, To the conqueror.
Well shit, this line has a ton to do with the previous one, it makes very much sense now right next to the one before it.
Now we delve further down the rabbit hole:
You and me will all go down in history, With a sad Statue of Liberty, And a Generation that didn't agree.
The generation that didn’t agree means more than just one thing. It seems to refer to the almost schizophrenic character of the American public at the moment (two minds – one body), but also the larger fissure between humanity – at this moment of the greatest contact between humans ever, it is also the moment where our differences are in our faces the most. Its one thing for someone to worship a different god when the are a 2 months boat ride away from me, but it is an entirely different thing when they are two clicks of a mouse away.
To the entire stanza now: The first time I listened to this, it sounded like most other interpretations have claimed. We will go down in the text books with the statue of liberty frowning upon us due to the differences of our generation.
As a started to listen to this song more and more however, a new meaning that fit much better with the rest of the meaning began to materialize. Two separate, but meaningful interpretations arise: 1) Let us remove from our minds the meaning of go down in history for a moment. What if this served more as a warning – we will go down. Due to our sad statue of liberty and the disagreement of our generation. (History serves more as a poetic tool to rhyme with agree). 2) I like this meaning better, as it seems to make more sense with the words SOAD has given us to make sense of. The meaning of the first line remains constant with what the common conception is – that we will go down in the history books. The sad statue of liberty (the title line of this song) might have a much more profound meaning. In this line, I believe, the rational and reasoning for the rest of the song lies. First lets consider the statue of liberty. What is it? What is it supposed to be? It is THE symbol of American freedom. Liberty (which means freedom) has been the corner stone of America (I have not experienced this for myself, but at least in the words of my predecessors) for the past 200 years. Now, however, we are losing those liberties. The government is the strongest in comparison with its subjects than it arguably ever has been. Many Americans are complaining that the government has taken away more and more rights of American citizens and some feel it may be nearing a critical point – a point where once certain rights are removed, the government would retain freewill, to do and say as they please in regards to its citizens, and not be fearful of any legal repercussions (this is what most proponents of democracy say is the problem with dictatorships). (If you would like to read more about this, I have an essay on the web about this. Please check it out at without-sight.pixelfaction.com/MCA/. If you disagree with this point, please at least read that essay before commenting on this point.) This is why the statue of liberty is sad. This is BECAUSE our generation cannot agree. We spend all our time arguing with each other, and have mostly ignored the fact that our government is doing this. The other point is that we have justified this governmental removal of citizens’ rights because we need to protect ourselves from foreign threats (another disagreement of our generation).
So we repeat the song again
You and me will all go down in history, With a sad Statue of Liberty, And a Generation that didn't agree.
I forgot to I forgot to let you know that...
Justified Candy! Brandy for the nerves, Eloquence belongs, To the conqueror.
Conquest to the lover, And your love to the fire, Permanence unfolding in the absolute.
Forgivness is The ultimate sacrifice. Eloquence belongs, To the conqueror.
You and me will all go down in history, With a sad Statue of Liberty, And a Generation that didn't agree.
You and me will all go down in history, With a sad Statue of Liberty, And a Generation that didn't agree.
Generation..............
Finally a new lyric:
What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!!
This doesn’t need analyzied. It needs said again, and again, and again, until someone can answer this with a valid reason.
To analyize this in context of the song though, The actions of people who conquer others remain permanent through history; to forgive is the ultimate sacrifice; history is rewritten favorably to by the conquerors; and we justify that which numbs our mind to these travesties; we as humans are sinking fast due to the removal of human rights; and now why do we ignore the suffering of humans? That seems to paint an adequate picture of what SOAD seems to be trying to say. The context of human suffering does not need to be the people of Darfur or the bystanders in Iraq, but HUMAN suffering – all of us are suffering (obviously some much more than others).
Allow me to allow someone more eloquent than me to explain what I mean by this:
“No man is an island, entire of itself every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee.
-- John Donne”
WOAH!!!!!!!
Suffering, suffering now!
You and me will all go down in history, With a sad Statue of Liberty, And a Generation that didn't agree.
You and me will all go down in history, With a sad Statue of Liberty, And a Generation that didn't agree.
Generation..........
Like I was saying a few lines above:
What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!! What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?!!!
remember - it tolls for thee
@durwin holy shit dude
@durwin holy shit dude
@durwin You were on a good track but got blinded by brandy for the nerves :)
@durwin You were on a good track but got blinded by brandy for the nerves :)
e>
Song is about the victors rewriting history and conquest ( which America is doing since beggining ) and all of that what You mentioned.Place where our views differ is that actually this song is not watching on lost rights of Americans that much, but how American millitary industrial complex has been destroying country after country all around the globe, and American people are just giving a blind eye to what THEY are doing instead of massive protests and are just pretending to be about freedom and democracy and that is making statue of Liberty sad cause the people decided they dont care about real freedom it is easier to go to McDonalds or get drunk and just ignore Your responsibility in millions of civilians getting killed in "Your name". And it doesnt matter to You anyway cause You will rewrite the history book time and time again and make it allright.... and all about patriotism and what not.... and one day long after all these wars played out You will go down in History and be remembered as a generation that was staying quite about atrociti as bad as ww2 ones, while still saying : America fuck Yeah with obese and dumbed down children that are brainwashed. ( this is not personal to You just American people as general that are not protesting this enough while constantly inventing new enemies to destroy. )